Hidden Truth/Hidden Truth.iso/data/genufo/genufo/alien/main_archive/j_upto_r/lazar_01.doc.txt

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ROBER LAZAR KLAS TRANSCRIPT

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                (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
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072/417 11 Nov 89 03:25:00
From:   Michael Corbin To:
All Subj:   For Immediate Release
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
November 10, 1989

     ParaNet  Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening  saw perhaps an
unprecedented event in UFOlogy.  KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada  has  been airing
a UFO special during  the  evening  news which began on Monday dealing with the
UFO mystery and  cover-up. The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began
its coverage with  a  history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s  and  moving
forward  through  the  numerous sighting reports  to  the  cattle mutilations,
which was aired last evening.  As promised  at  the close of last evening's
show, George Knapp, a news anchorman  for Channel  8  in Vegas, stated that a
scientific  person  would  be featured on tonight's program who has claimed to
work at Area 51, the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in
Nevada. Indeed,  quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist  who
claimed  that  he had worked on a project at  Area  51  involving flying disks
provided by alien intelligences.
     Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating  to possible
involvement  with the government in  projects  of  this nature at the Nevada
test site.  Up to now, the stories have been of a very speculative nature.
Although the material presented by Robert  Lazar  remains unconfirmed, enough
information  has  been disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in
Nevada  has started  an  intensive investigation into this  release.   It  is
interesting  to  note that Robert Lazar is an associate  of  John Lear  and
has been providing this information to Lear  over  the last  few  months.  Lear
has appeared on Channel  8  on  numerous occasions together will Bill Cooper
discussing Lear's famous  'ET Hypothesis.'   According  to  Lear,  Lazar  was
instrumental  in providing  Lear  with locations overlooking the test  site
which would  provide a good view of the objects as they flew  into  the night
sky.   Lear attempted to shoot video of an  object  as  it maneuvered  through
the night sky during  last  summer,  however nothing  was captured on the tape
of a substantive nature.   Lear also  relates  that his group was harassed by
a  Lincoln  County sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures.
     Below  is  a  transcript  of the  program  that  aired  this evening.
All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator  of  the segment.   We were as
accurate as possible on the  transcription, however  there are a couple of
places where comments were  edited out due to inability to understand what was
being said.
     Further  reports  will be provided  as  information  becomes available.
===============================================================================

     We've  been  working  on  the  story  for  some  time....UFO researchers
claim that there is a secret government  within  our government.  Now this may
be hard to believe coming from the  UFO perspective,  but  we have learned that
Watergate  and  the  Iran Contra  scandal  that factions within our government
can  and  do pursue  their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside  the
control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American  people. This is
exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight. It's  a  chilling
scenario with worldwide implications  that  may have its roots right here [Las
Vegas, Nevada].
     Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site,  is no  longer
considered a secret.  The fact that  secretive  things go on here isn't
evident; even to the Soviets who make daily  spy flights  over  the facility to
take a peek at  what's  going  on. These photos, never before shown in public,
are about as close as anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like
again. The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile long
runway  and some highly sophisticated radar  and  detection equipment.   Its
been  known by many names  over  the  years  -- Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk
Works.  If ever there was a place to  test  the  secret new technology, this
is  it.   And  that's exactly what has been done here for decades.
     Area  51  is  where Francis Gary Powers and  the  other  U-2 pilots  were
trained in the 50s.  And, where the U-2  itself  was developed.   The SR-71 spy
plane that spotted Soviet missiles  in Cuba  in  the early 60s were also
developed at 51.  51  is  where Stealth  technology  was nurtured, where Star
Wars  devices  are still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business
has been  plotted  and refined.  It's the perfect  place  for  secret things,
but  of course, that's no secret.  51 is ringed  by  the forbidden vastness of
the Nevada test site; by the looming  Groom Mountain  and  by sparsely
populated desert  expanses.   But  the people that do live out here have no
love lost for the  military, but  they're  conservative,  patriotic and they
mind  their  own business.

--- FD 2.00
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088/417 14 Nov 89 03:22:00
From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base?
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV --
carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY
being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.
Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as
even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds.
Disinformation?  Reality? What next? At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and
reporter Glen Meek are tracking down the nature of the on-going projects at
Area 51.  Off-air, Meek says he has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of
four sections.  Of those, he has learned the type of activity occurring at two
of them.  He has been having much difficulty learning the type of activity
occurring at the other two. KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m.
Wed., Thurs, & Fri. In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp,
a UFO performs abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51
at the Test Site.  Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at
approximately 6:15 p.m. Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who
drew a picture of the craft he saw operating at the base. Lazar emphatically
claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices. Lazar says at least
one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile. War of the Worlds?
Robert B. Klinn --- QuickBBS v2.04
 * Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO [phone] (1:104/422)
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097/417 15 Nov 89 01:55:00
From:   Michael Corbin
To:     All
Subj:   Installment on Dreamland continued.
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
November 13, 1989

     ParaNet   Information  Service  (Denver,  CO)  --   In   our continuing
coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out  of Las  Vegas, Nevada, here
is the next installment to  the  program aired  on  November 13, 1989 by
television  station  KLAS-TV  and George Knapp.

=================================================================
News Anchor persons:
     A  former  government scientist has alleged  that  the  U.S. military is
flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the  Nevada desert.  The allegations
about the secret facility near the Groom Mountains  first  surfaced  on
Eyewitness  News  on  last  Friday [November 10, 1989].
     Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the flying
saucers  being  tested and that they were  not  built  on Earth.   George Knapp
has more on the continuation of our  series on UFOs.

Lazar:   "Yeah.  It was obvious it came from somewhere else,  uh, other than
Earth."

     Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw being  tested
at a secret base in the Nevada desert is  of  alien origin,  and for Lazar the
proof is, at least, partially  in  the furniture.   One of the nine flying
disks he says he saw  at  the base,  which  was  designated S-4, looks exactly
like  this  UFO photographed  in Europe [Photo of UFO shown].   Lazar  called
it the "sport model."

Lazar:  "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you  know the  jello
mold and, uh, the sport model  operated  without  any hitches  at  all.  I
mean, it looked new.  If I knew what  a  new flying  saucer looked like.  One
of them looked like it  was  hit with  some  sort  of a projectile.  It had a
large  hole  in  the bottom  and a large hole in the top with the metal bent
out  like some  sort  of,  you know, large caliber 4 or  5  inch  had  gone
through it."

     Even  before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says,  he suspected
that  the  ship  came  from  somewhere   else.    The realization  slapped him
in the face the first time  he  glimpsed the inside of the disk.

Lazar:  "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs.   I think  that
was the first confirmation I had.  That was  just  a shocking thing because
everytime before that I was able to  label it.  This is just a little advance
that a group of scientists had formed  and,  you know, they're keeping it
secret, and  yeah,  we could  have  built  a big disk like that,  and  yeah,
that's  no problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to  make it
fly, but why does it have little furniture inside?  [garbled]. And things began
to click together just all too fast."

     A  few of the disks had been completely dismantled  to  find out   how
they  worked,  Lazar  says,  but  others  were   fully operational.  A Japanese
TV network created this animated version of  Lazar's story after his first
interview with us aired in  May [showing  video].  Lazar says the dramatization
is similar  to  a test flight he witnessed.

Lazar:  "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any, like  high
voltage does on a round sphere.  It's  my  impression that the reason that
they're round and have no sharp edges is  to contain the high voltage like, uh,
if you've seen a high  voltage system's insulators -- things are round or else
you get a  corona discharge.   In either case, it began to hiss as in high
voltage and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little  hiss in
the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached  about 20 or 30 feet."

     Lazar  says the test of the sport model was a short  one  -- that  it
made  only a few moves before setting  back  down.   He didn't  see  who  was
actually flying the  craft,  but  was  very impressed, nonetheless.

Lazar:  "Well, there's no action reaction system to it.   There's no,  like  in
a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown  out  --  no propeller,  no noise.  It's
just, for all intents  and  purposes, magic."

     To  Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being  used, for  say, any
flights to Jupiter.  He said excessive caution  and intense  secrecy
contributed to the plodding pace of the  program and were a main source of his
disenchantment.

Lazar:   "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the  hands of the
overall scientific community.  There are people much  more capable of dealing
with this information, and by this time  would have  gotten a lot further along
than this small select group  of people working out in the middle of the
desert.  They don't  even have  the facilities, really, to completely analyze
what  they're dealing with."

Gene  Huff:  "Well he was being quiet.  If he kept me abreast  of anything,  he
kept me abreast of the security checks  --  they'd randomly  drop  by his
house.  They'd threaten his  life;  they'd threaten  his wife's life.  They had
done all that so  we  really didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to
the program."

     Gene  Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser.  A  regular guy  who
just  happens to have a friend  in  the  flying  saucer business.  He learned
about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after  a long period.  Lazar is anxious for
people to know that he  didn't just  run  right out and spill the secrets of
the  universe,  and that some things are properly kept confidential.

Lazar:  "I did not believe that this should be a security matter. Some  of it,
sure.  But, just the concept that  there's  definite proof, and uh, we even
have articles from another world,  another system, you just can't not tell
everyone.  A lot of people  don't believe that.  But, I do."

     When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took Huff  and a
few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to  see the  flights  for
themselves.  A total of five witnesses  on  two consecutive  weeks managed to
dodge security patrols long  enough to see the strange glowing object lift
above the mountain.

Huff(?):   "Uh,  it came up above the same  mountain.   It  moved around.   It
did a step move -- it actually went up in  the  air like  this  [showing
details with hands]  and  it  hovered  then dropped way down then it just
floated around and cruised  around. It starts coming up the mountain range...."

     This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to the   Groom
Mountains   [showing  video   tape.    A   lot   of talking....Object  in
sight....Mention  of  brightness  of   the object....].
     Admittedly,  the tape proves very little by itself  because, with  the
distance and darkness,  there are no  reference  points other than the alleged
flying disk, but Lazar's information about the  time and location of the test
flight proves correct  --  not once  but  twice.  That, according to our
off-camera  interviews with each of the other witnesses.  Gene Huff describes
his second sighting:

Huff:   "Through the telescope we could see an  elliptical-shaped light.   You
can only get so close even with a  telescope  to  a secure  facility.   Anyway,
it came up by us  very  rapidly.   It glowed  and  glows  brighter like a star
and we  almost  got  the feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so
brightly.   We backed  up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up
a little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where  the mountains
where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then  that's that....Just like you
see in the movies."

     Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside  knowledge" of  the
flying  disks at the test site -- he is  just  the  only person  to  say so
publicly.  We have communicated  with  several people who say they know of the
saucer program.  A technician  in a highly sensitive position told us it is
"common knowledge among those  with high security clearances that recovered
alien  disks are  stored at the Nevada test site."  A Las Vegas  professional,
who  once  served in the military and was stationed at  the  test site,  said
he saw a flying disk land outside the  boundaries  of Area  51 -- that it was
quickly surrounded by security  personnel and  that he was taken away and
debriefed for several  hours.   A man  who  once  worked  at Groom Lake as  a
technician,  at  our request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently
walked into  the  wrong  hangar  and saw what appeared  to  be  a  large
metallic disk under a tarp.  It was being examined by men in  lab coats.   And,
an  airman  who  worked  at  Nellis  at  a   radar installation  says  he and
his fellow servicemen watched  over  a period  of  five nights, unusual objects
flying  over  the  Groom Mountains.  He says the radar images indicates the
objects zoomed into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would
stop on  a  dime, and that nothing we have is capable of  doing  that. The
airman says that when word of his sighting got out,  he  was ordered  to turn
off his radar sensors for that area and told  to keep quiet about the matter
because it did not happen.
     None  of  this means that the military  is  actually  flying alien
spacecraft in the Nevada desert.  It could all perhaps  be explained as some
other secret program.  Lazar insists that's not the case.
     We  put  the  matter to the U.S. Navy,  which  according  to Lazar, is
running the saucer show.  Four different naval  offices were  contacted.   All
denied having any  information  in  their files.   The  Naval  Research Lab
said it  conducted  a  thorough search  but found "zip."  Naval Intelligence
said much  the  same thing,  adding,  it is not required to create a  file
where  one doesn't  exist.  A side note:  We also requested files on  a  UFO
sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952.  The Navy spent more  than a thousand
hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact  that's been  noted in several
publications -- but, for purposes  of  our request, the Navy couldn't find
those files either.

Lazar:   "The group that runs this project, whether it really  is the  Navy  or
they just say that, apparently  these  people  have executive power -- they
don't report to anyone."

     Tomorrow,   more  troubling  allegations  of  the military potential of
alien technology.

=================================================================

This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.

--- FD 2.00
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146/417 20 Nov 89 00:16:00
From:   Michael Corbin
To:     All
Subj:   More on Lazar and Dreamland/Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
November 14, 1989

     ParaNet   Information  Service  (Denver,  CO)  --   In   our continuing
coverage of the Riddle of Area 51, here is yet another installment  of  the
KLAS-TV program being aired  in  Las  Vegas, Nevada  featuring Bob Lazar, who
has 'come out of the closet'  so to speak with information regarding government
testing of UFOs.

=================================================================

     Just  over this ridge [showing a photo of Area  51],  tucked inside the
test tubes of a hidden government base, the secrets of the  universe may be
unfolding.  The area is designated S-4,  and according to one man who claims to
have worked there, S-4 harbors scientific   achievements   that  would
astonish   our   deepest thinkers.  It is technology that, if it exists, could
change  the world, but is allegedly bottled up by military minds.

Lazar:   "It's  not  an overall  government  project.   It's  not something
that Congress appropriates money for.  2 billion is for this; 15 billion for
flying saucers; 8 billion for Star Wars.  It doesn't  go  like  that.   I don't
believe  that  they  have  any knowledge of it at all."

     The technology that Bob Lazar says he saw extends far beyond flying
saucers.  An anti-matter reactor allows the spaceships  to produce   their  own
gravitational  fields,  he  says,  such   a technology,  if  real, would answer
UFO skeptics who  argue  that aliens  could  never visit Earth because  the
distances  between worlds are too great, even at the speed of light.

Lazar:  "Gravity distorts time and space.  Just like if you had a water bed and
put a bowling ball in the middle.  It warps it down like  that  -- that's
exactly what happens to  space.   Imagining that  you  were  in a spacecraft
that could  exert  a  tremendous gravitational  field  by itself you could sit
on  any  particular place  and turn on the gravity generator and actually warp
space and  time, and fold it.  By shutting that off, you'd  click  back and
you'd be a tremendous distance from where you were but  time would not have
even moved because you essentially shut it off.  I mean it is so far fetched,
people....it's difficult for people to grasp,  and  as stubborn as the
scientific community  is  they'll never buy it, but this is, in fact, that's
just what happens."

     Actually,  Lazar's explanation is very close  to  mainstream scientific
thought, and can be traced directly to Einstein.   The difference is scientists
regard it as theory only.  There is much that science still doesn't know.

Dale  Etheridge (Scientist):  "There are people who say that  our main  problem
with that is we don't know what gravity  is.   It's this magical force that
acts at a distance.  We can describe  how it  behaves -- that's what the law of
gravity is -- it's  just  a description  of  how it behaves, but it says
nothing  about  what gravity really is."


     We'll use Etheridge as our barometer of scientific  thought. He says we
cannot produce gravity; that there's no such thing  as a working anti-matter
reactor, and that we have yet to figure out a  way  to  get around the speed of
light.   He  also  concedes, though, such things are possible.

Etheridge:   "Yeah.  And really we don't know what's possible  as there  could
be other civilizations out  there  several  hundred years  or so -- a thousand
years, even a million years  ahead  of us  -- that have found a way to
circumvent this.  We have no  way of knowing for sure."

Lazar:  "Well, the thing is when you harness gravity, you harness everything.
It's  the missing piece in physics right  now.   We really know very little
about gravity."

     At  least  that's  the way it used to be.   Lazar  says  the technology to
harness gravity not only exists but is being tested at S-4.  And, if such
technology is beyond human capabilities, it must  have come from someplace
else.  It's more than  conjecture, he  says, because he also saw an element
that cannot be found  on the  periodic chart.  The element, called 115, can be
stored  in lead  casings  much  like  this  one  [showing  a  lead  circular
container].  Lazar says the government has 500 pounds of it,  and it cannot be
made on earth.

Lazar:  "It would be almost impossible; well, it is impossible to synthesize an
element that heavy here on Earth."

Interviewer:  "At least right now."

Lazar:   "I  don't think that you can ever  synthesize  it.   The amount
of....you essentially have to assemble it by bombarding it with protons
if....atom by atom, it would take an infinite amount of  power and an infinite
amount of time.  The substance  has  to come  from  a place where super-heavy
elements  could  have  been produced naturally.

     And what sort of place is that?

Lazar:   "Next to a much larger sun where there would be  greater mass.   Maybe
a binary star system -- a super-nova  --  somewhere where  there  is just a
bigger release of  energy  to  synthesize these  things  naturally.   It has to
be  a  naturally  occurring element."

     115  is the fuel for the anti-matter reactors, he says.   By bombarding
115 anti-matter is produced.  A kilo  of  anti-matter could  produce the energy
equivalent of 46  ten-megaton  hydrogen bombs, and comparing the energy
potential of anti-matter to, say, the Hoover Dam would be like comparing
planets to grains of sand. 115 could also make one heck of a bomb.

Lazar:   "We're talking about hundreds and hundreds  of  megatons off  a  small
piece  of it.  It  sounds  incredible,  but  total conversion  of  matter  to
energy would release  that  amount  of power.  And it isn't that difficult to
take....get the energy out of  it.  So it's not something you'd ever want to
fall  anyone's hands."

     The  dangers associated with 115 and anti-matter may be  the reason Lazar
was hired to work at S-4.  There was an accident, he says, back in April 1987.
An accident that was passed off as  an unannounced nuclear test.

Lazar:   "Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was  one of the people
that were to replace these guys."

     Is this why the government might be keeping the whole matter a secret?
Because of the military potential of alien technology? Lazar  says  he believes
the Soviet Union was once  part  of  our research  on  the  flying disks, but
that  the  U.S.  kicked  the Soviets  out  after  making  some sort  of
discovery.   He  also believes  the program at S-4 is operated with funds
allocated  to Star  Wars  research,  but  says he can't  prove  it.   Some  UFO
researchers suspect the government is test flying alien craft  so that  it can
one day master the technology and claim it was  made in  the good old U.S.A.,
thus obscuring the possibility of  alien visitations.

Stanton  T. Friedman:  "I think they have the duty to inform  us. At  least  to
the bare bones of what's going on.   I  don't  want technological  stuff put
out on the table.  I mean, I  worked  on classified  projects  for  15 years,
and I don't  think  we  need another  weapon's  delivery system.  But I think
the  government does have the responsibility to release information that,
indeed, the  planet  is  being visited.  Probably it should  be  done  in
conjunction with the Soviets."

Lazar:   "I don't think that it will get to that level.   They're not  going to
have a fleet of them and fly them  around  and....I don't think you need to do
that.  If you're looking at them  from a weapons point of view, you're looking
at an incredibly powerful device.   You only need one to operate.  You don't
ever  need  to come public with it.  You may want to learn more about it
should it ever break which is....might be what they're doing.  Uh...."

Interviewer:  "They've got one...."

Lazar:  "Oh, they've got a few.  Yeah."

     Lazar  is  the  first to admit that his story  is  tough  to swallow.   He
submitted  to  polygraph  exams  that  opened   up sensitive  parts  of his
personal life, and fully expects  to  be ridiculed or perhaps punished for his
revelations.  His desire to explain  what  really happened at S-4 took us to
Layne  Keck,  a licensed  experienced  hypnotherapist who quietly  and
privately tried to help Lazar remember details of the many briefing  papers he
says he read.

Keck:   "I  have no clue as to what we were getting  to,  and  he started
saying  that there were pictures of what I  thought  was desks  on the wall.
Well as it turned out, it was disks that  he was  referring to.  And, at that
moment, I realized we were  into something that was pretty heavy."

     Keck  does  not  exaggerate his  claims  for  hypnosis.   He regards it as
a useful tool for uncovering some lost memory.   He says  people are quite
capable of lying under hypnosis, but  says the  technique can be of help in
determining truth.   What's  his opinion of Lazar's truthfulness?

Keck:   "It tells me that his subconscious mind believes  totally all of these
things."

     Lazar has long suspected that his government employers  used some  sort
of  mind  control  technique  to  prevent  him   from disclosing  too  much
about S-4.  While he  says  he  has  vivid conscious memories of the saucers
and other technology there were other  memories, that even now, remained
locked, which is why  he sought  out  Keck  in the first place.  Keck  is
convinced  that someone really did mess with Lazar's head.

Keck:  "Also they used primitive fear in threatening those in his environment
if  he did bring this information forth.   Also,  it appears that maybe there
were some chemicals used."

Lazar:  "Nah, I'm not going to change anyone's mind.  That not my intention.
I'm  just relaying the experience.  The job  that  I went through.  It is a
fantastic thing.  It's a fantastic  story. I can't take people there to show
them what was going on, and uh, you know, I don't expect anyone to believe it."

     What  if he is right?  What if aliens are here?   How  would this change
our view of the world?  Our most fundamental beliefs, which is religion?  We'll
know more on that tomorrow.

=================================================================

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159/417 21 Nov 89 22:38:00
From:   Robert Klinn
To:     Bryon Smith
Subj:   Re:     Area 51:  The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret Ufo Base?
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------------
The time for the KLAS-TV (Channel 8), Las Vegas, report is Saturday, November
25, 1989, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m.  The program is titled, "UFOs:  The Evidence."
Producer George Knapp says it will include the substance as well as updates of
material recently broadcast as the nine-part series, "UFOs:  The Best Evidence."
(Incidentally, each of those nine parts was approximately 15 minutes, not one
hour.) Knapp also says that while he is personally interested in more UFO
material about Area 51, there is no more budget at his station to pursue it.
This contrasts with his on-air statement last week at the end of the ninth
segment of the series, to the effect that the Area 51/S-4/Robert
Lazar/recovered alien vehicles investigation is continuing; also earlier in the
series, he had said that this was only the beginning, that the investigation is
"by no means" over. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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166/417 22 Nov 89 19:41:00
From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   Robert Lazar on KVEG-AM
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Theoretical physicist Robert Lazar and friend Las Vegas realtor Gene Huff --
in-studio guests on "Billy Goodman's Happening" live talk show, KVEG 840-AM
Radio, 10:00 p.m. 11/21/89 until 1:00 a.m. 11/22/89 -- answered questions for
three hours. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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168/417 22 Nov 89 20:55:00
From:   Michael Corbin
To:     All
Subj:   Update: Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
CONTRIBUTED BY:  Robert B. Klinn, ParaNet Director of
                 Investigations/Research
================================================================================
                (C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
================================================================================
Theoretical physicist Robert Lazar and his friend, Las Vegas realtor, Gene
Huff -- in-studio guests on "Billy Goodman's Happening" live talk show, KVEG
840-AM Radio, 10:00 p.m.11/21/89 until 1:00 a.m. 11/22/89 -- answered questions
for three hours.

These notes were compiled from 10:20 p.m., thus missing 20 minutes (10:00 -
10:20 p.m.) of the three-hour program.

Lazar says he is tired.

1.  Lazar's Purpose In Going On-Air: Although Lazar's main stated purpose in
appearing on the broadcast is to protect himself, caller Bill Cooper says one
of Lazar's motives is anger -- previously expressed privately to Cooper -- that
billions of dollars are  needlessly wasted in the normal U.S. sectors by those
without access to this alien technology.  Lazar agrees.

Lazar says another reason for his appearing is to correct incorrect information
he had heard on previous broadcasts.

Billy Goodman says Lazar's, Bill Cooper's, and John Lear's lives are on the
line and that Lazar's best protection is the media, which is keeping Lazar
alive.

Lazar hopes "other people out there" working at S-4 will loosen up, come
forward, and join with him to present their information as one, as a group.
He doesn't want to be "the lone ranger."

Congressional amnesty -- suggested by a caller -- would be nice, says Lazar,
but merely offers freedom from prosecution.  By coming forward, he concedes,
the other S-4 workers have everything to lose and nothing to gain.

But Huff says there has to be a moral guideline where national security has to
hang in the balance and that the reporting of the existence of alien spaceships
is where you draw the line.

Caller Bill Cooper says there is "a higher value" that those at S-4 should
consider as a reason for coming forward to join Lazar.

But Lazar makes a point of distinguishing his whole view of the UFO situation
from that of John Lear or Bill Cooper.

2.  Verification of Lazar's Background: Lazar says he worked at S-4 --  a
"restrained military environment" in Nevada -- from 12/88 to 4/89.

In response to callers who want independently to check up on Lazar, he says his
"colorful" background has already been checked by George Knapp of KLAS-TV, who
had traveled to Los Alamos Laboratories and had spoken to former Lazar
colleagues, who confirmed he really had worked there -- in spite of Los Alamos
itself denying the fact of Lazar's employment with them.  (Knapp's UFO
broadcast displayed a page from a 1982 Los Alamos Labs internal phone book,
listing Robert Lazar.)

Caller Bill Cooper, who says he has talked to Lazar for over a year, says that
by talking to persons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory and at another facility,
he and associates have confirmed Lazar's previous work in physics at the places
Lazar specified.  Lazar replied he was not aware of this checking done by
Cooper.

Responding to an "investigator" caller wanting Lazar to give him private info
in order to check him out, Lazar says Lazar himself once took a correspondence
course to be a private "investigator."

Lazar says he has 25 people each wanting independently to check him out, but he
will not allow that.

Although Lazar admits he was paid by check, he refuses to discuss anything
about the check stubs.

<Continued next message...>

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169/417 22 Nov 89 20:55:00
From:   Michael Corbin
To:     Michael Corbin
Subj:   Update:  Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
<...Continued from previous message>

3.  Lazar's Clearance Level: He says neither REECO (Reynolds Electrical and
Engineering Co., Inc.) nor EG&G  -- each a well-known U.S. Department of Energy
Test Site contractor -- has people at S-4, that those persons' clearances are
at most Q-Clearances, while his own clearance is "38 levels above Q-Clearance."
The closest to S-4 that REECO or EG&G people physically get, he says, is Area
51.

4.  Threats Made to Lazar/Lazar Shot At? When Goodman refers to Lazar's telling
him before the broadcast that Lazar had been shot at, Lazar says he doesn't
want to talk about it.

Lazar says he was called to go back to work but officially refused because he
didn't like the idea of returning to that isolated place in the desert where
they could do what they wanted to him. However, he says his clearance has not
been revoked.

Lazar says the executive powers at S-4 have run amok and there are no checks
and balances.  Congress, he says, has no knowledge of all this. Lazar says
there are no lengths to which the military will not go to conceal this
information.

5.  Mind Control Suspicions: He contacted hypnotherapist Layne Keck of Serenus
Clinical Hypnosis in Las Vegas because there were a couple of days where Lazar
remembered only going out in a plane and coming back, but nothing in between.
He suspected mind control had been performed on him.

Lazar purposely selected Serenus because it had nothing to do with UFOs. [A Las
Vegas Yellow Pages ad says: Serenus Clinical Hypnosis Helen Baucum 30 years
Experience "Pin-Point" Method Children Our Specialty Weight Control,
Stuttering, Bed Wetting, Nervous Tensions, Smoking, Drinking, Memory Retention
384-4420 1833 W. Charleston (across from S. Nevada Memorial Hosp.)]

Under hypnosis, Lazar recalled intense drilling, threatening actions taken
against him, and his drinking of "pine," which his hypnotherapist said was
similar to the "Orion [sp?] Method" of regimented hypnosis used by the
military.

Per Huff, Lazar was given drugs and hypnosis by his employers -- not so he
would forget what he was working on, but so -- by their imprinting his
subconscious -- he would be afraid to talk.

Per Huff, after first telling Lazar his phone was tapped, the military later
threatened him because, having monitored his phone, they knew he was planning
to release information about the alien craft.  Huff says the military were
amazed that the drugs and hypnosis had not worked.

Although he is afraid, Lazar hopes they won't come after him now since he has
already talked.

6.  Location of the Saucers: Lazar says the nine saucers are not at the
supersecret Area 51 (Groom Lake) of the U.S. government's Nevada Test Site, but
at S-4 -- 10 miles south of Area 51.  The disks are only at this one place.
However, to go to work, Lazar flew (by plane) to Groom Lake, waited a short
time at a cafe, then got on a bus [with blacked-out windows, per Lazar's
Knapp-series statements].

Lazar says he knows someone who drills tunnels at the Test Site, but no mention
is made that this individual also works at S-4.

7.  Bad Aliens Killed S-4 Workers: Lazar says the aliens are not benevolent.

Some humans were killed in a conflict after a U.S. military intelligence power
play, after which point a previously ongoing information exchange ended.

Huff says Lazar earlier told him -- and Lazar agrees he had said this -- that
this exchange of information occurred between the aliens and human
scientists/human security personnel [at S-4?].

But although the aliens had allowed themselves to be under constant human
guard, the aliens had insisted there be no bullets in the guns worn by the
security people.  [Bullets may have been a symbol covering all loaded weapons.]

The security people ignored that demand, and they all died from head wounds --
which left no evidence of how they had died.

The aliens even killed the scientists they were teaching.

[On Knapp's broadcast last week, Lazar said he was told he was one of the
replacements: George Knapp: The dangers associated with 115 [the alien element]
and anti-matter may be the reason Lazar was hired to work at S-4.  There was an
accident, he says, back in April 1987,  an accident that was passed off as an
unannounced nuclear test.

Robert Lazar: Some people got killed.  I was told flat out I was one of the
people that were to replace these guys.]

Responding to a caller, Lazar says talking about aliens is NOT a touchy subject
for him.  Aliens exist, he says. [Lear, in an earlier On the Record KLAS-TV
broadcast, says Lazar saw aliens.]


<Continued next message...>

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170/417 22 Nov 89 20:56:00
From:   Michael Corbin
To:     Michael Corbin
Subj:   Update: Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
<...Continued from previous message>

8.  Time of Saucer Test Flights: The tests of the saucers at S-4 are Wednesday
nights. Lazar says he was fired because he showed people where and when these
tests were performed.

9.  Who Pilots the Test Flights? Lazar says the experimental UFO flights at S-4
are flown either by remote control or by human pilots -- not by the aliens.

10.  Origin of the Saucers at S-4: The alien vehicles Lazar saw up close in
hangars come from "another world: "the fourth planet out from Zeta Reticulum II
[sp?], a binary system."  [Same as on Betty Hill's map?]

11.  Description of the Saucers: He says he touched one of the nine UFOs and
even stood in its doorway.

He says the saucers mostly appeared "like new" -- one of them looking like the
Billy Meier saucer. [On George Knapp's recent series "UFOs: The Best Evidence"
(KLAS-TV, Las Vegas), Lazar says one of the saucers "looked like it was hit
with some sort of a projectile.  It had a large hole in the bottom and a large
hole in the top with the metal bent out like some sort of, you know, large
caliber 4- or 5-inch had gone through it."]

The inside of one craft appears made of wax and then cooled off, all like a
cast or mold of one thing with no rough edges.

Inside were small chairs, one or one and one-half feet, as though made for
little kids. (Compare with George Knapp's new Roswell witness who said on
Knapp's nine-segment broadcast that a Roswell funeral home worker had told him
the military had purchased all of the "baby or youth caskets" in stock for the
purpose of holding the Roswell aliens.)

12.  Nine S-4 Saucers Extraterrestrial -- Not Earthly: The nine disks he saw up
close -- including the one he worked on -- were not earthly and were definitely
extraterrestrial.

Lazar can't say whether or not the other disks he saw at a distance during
testing [seen on  video presented in George Knapp's broadcasts] are man-made or
extraterrestrial.

13.  Physics of the Saucers at S-4: Lazar says the vehicle attaches itself to a
distorted portion of space-time and returns with the distortion.  It's a new
physics. The vehicles brought a space-time warp with them.

Lazar says the propulsion technology should properly remain classified, since
everything there is looked at from a weapons point of view.  A lot is directly
applicable to weapons systems, and he has no intention of releasing it, he
says.

But he says the craft uses gravity as a lens and the power source is an
anti-matter reactor.

Two Modes of Travel for Saucers at S-4: 1)  When traveling around the surface
of the planet, the vehicles balance on a gravity wave or ride a wave like a
cork on the ocean.  In this mode they are unstable and are affected by the
weather.

2)  For space travel, they use gravity generators.  But if they fly around the
surface of Earth using this mode, they may flip over, a phenomenon Lazar says
has frequently been observed in past sightings in the published UFO literature.

Two gravities:  A & B. Gravity A works on an atomic scale whose interaction is
small and has to do with fuel -- the alien Element 115 used for the disks.

Gravity B works on a macro scale.

The gravitational field is OUT OF PHASE with [unknown ?] and is like a wave
generator.  It is LONGITUDINAL generation -- not spherical, as a caller
suggested.

14.  Project Aurora: "Aurora," says Lazar, distinguishing it from any UFOs, is
the replacement for the SR-71 plane.  It uses a three-mile runway and makes a
sound like continuous explosions. It has speeds up to Mach 10.

15.  No Alien Cattle Mutilations? As far as HE knows, Lazar says, there is no
alien UFO tie-in with cattle mutilations.

16.  Few Abductees? More persons claim to be abductees than have actually been
abducted, suggests Lazar.

17.  No Blue Diamond Entry Way for Saucers: Notwithstanding UFO watchers
congregating at Blue Diamond, Lazar says there is only a gravity anomaly around
Blue Diamond, not an entry way for saucers into our universe.

18.  Other Physics Comments By Lazar: Time travel: GRAVITY affects time.
Moving FORWARD in time is "a breeze":  All you need do is get close to a
gravitational field. Moving back in time MIGHT also be possible.

Some physicists today, says Lazar, invoke superstring theories to simply add
another dimension to the universe whenever they can't explain something.

Referring to laser fusion experiments as "stupid," Lazar refers to a location
where they have been conducted.

Lazar also speaks of a process of squeezing plutonium.

In response to a caller's question, Lazar says M-42 is a galaxy.

19.  Lazar says George Knapp's two-hour program on KLAS-TV, Channel 8 in Las
Vegas, this Saturday, 11/25/89, 8:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., will contain "much
more information" than Knapp's recent nine-part, two-hour UFO broadcasts last
week.

================================================================================

This is contained in a file called 1122LACO.UFO in the Library.

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181/417 24 Nov 89 21:29:41
From:   Cyro Lord
To:     All
Subj:   Antimatter
Drives and Area 51
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
From: [e-mail] (Cyro Lord) Date: 24 Nov 89 20:44:28 GMT
Organization: ALPHA Comm. Dev. Corp., Aurora, Co. Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet


>From: [e-mail] (MacLeod) In article <[e-mail]> paj@mrcu (Paul
Johnson) writes:

:A couple of months ago I read Robert Forward's book "Mirror Matter" in :which
he suggests that the practical use of antimatter is now :possible.  Are his
ideas impractical?  If not, what is being done :about them?

Glad you asked about antimatter.

According to a series of reports on two Las Vegas television stations (there is
a two-hour special coming on 11-25 for those in the LV area) one Robert Lazar,
formerly employed by the government at the mysterious Area 51, says that the US
government has 500 pounds of element 115, which somehow produces antimatter
when irradiated.

This fuel is used to drive waveguide-type gravity amplifiers which are the FTL
drive components of nine alien spacecraft stored in hangars out at Area 51 (the
supersecret testing grounds also known as "Dreamland" in the middle of the
Nellis AFB bombing range about 65 miles northeast of Las Vegas).  From his
brief description of how the drives operate, they seem to create local
black-hole strength gravity gradients which slow down time and cause a
space-fold quickly traversible by the spacecraft.

Lazar says he was hired to continue covert research into these spacecraft and
their engineering infrastructure after a former team of scientists had screwed
the pooch with a batch of element 115, forcing the AEC to hurridly announce an
"unscheduled" atomic test at Dreamland.

Don't flame me, call KLAS-TV in Vegas if you're curious.  They will be selling
copies of the 2-hour special, due to the outpouring of interest in it -
stimulated by word of mouth and news propagated by ParaNet. For some odd reason
the national media have not paid any attention...

You can also get on the ParaNet mailing list by sending a note to:
        scicom!infopara Michael Sloan MacLeod   (amdahl!drivax!macleod) (This
article is from the 'misc.headlines' newsgroup of USENET. If this is a repost,
please excuse the repost. -Cyro)

-- <---------------------------++++++++++++++++++----------------------------->
Cyro Lord       Alpha Comm. Dev. Corp. -  DOMAIN  [e-mail]
UUCP            {ncar,nbires,boulder,isis}!scicom!cyrill Corn can't expect
Justice from a court of chickens. (African Proverb)

--- ConfMail V4.00
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191/417 25 Nov 89 22:25:00
From:   Don Allen
To:     Jim Speiser
Subj:   Re:Newest Release..
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Jim-Great approach, Don! I wish more people would do that. But when you hand it
out..   @ YES I DID! I did mention that it was unconfirmed. I may have an open
mind,but it ain't so open that my brains fall out!    Fact is,one of the people
that I handed the releases to is a Naval Commander (reservist). He was real
interested,but didn't say much. I was particularly amused when he asked that if
anything else came out that he would like to see it..    Jim- WHERE'S DA
BEEF???? .......   VERY good question Jim....The LEFT side of my brain is
asking the same thing,however the RIGHT side is leaning heavily towards
considering it as more than true. Lazar's claims sure *seem* more than
credible...   Sounds confusing,I know..but I keep the balance by continuing to
look for the "outpoints" of Lazar's story..things I'm mulling over:

Release- "In response to callers who want independently to check up on Lazar,
he says his "colorful" background has already been checked by George Knapp of
KLAS-TV, who had traveled to Los Alamos Laboratories and had spoken to former
Lazar colleagues, who confirmed he really had worked there -- in spite of Los
Alamos itself denying the fact of Lazar's employment with them.  (Knapp's UFO
broadcast displayed a page from a 1982 Los Alamos Labs internal phone book,
listing Robert Lazar.)

@ Thats SOUNDS plausible..but how do we actually *know* that Knapp checked up
on him? Is there any documentation that Knapp can actually SHOW (read-> Hard
copy) that Lazar has worked the places he's claimed to?

Release- Caller Bill Cooper, who says he has talked to Lazar for over a year,
says that by talking to persons at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory and at another
facility, he and associates have confirmed Lazar's previous work in physics at
the places Lazar specified. Lazar replied he was not aware of this checking
done by Cooper.

@ Which Bill Cooper is this? Is this THE Bill Cooper who was (to put it
politely) kicked off Paranet for leaving inflammatory statements to others? And
if so,what credibility do we (users,Paranet) assign to him? Are HIS "facts"
checkable? Have they been in the past?

Release-
 Lazar says he has 25 people each wanting independently to check him out, but
he will not allow that.

@ I can understand that. But how about a panel of 5 reputable people? Certainly
Dr Stanton Friedman should be one of the panel..

Release-
 He says neither REECO (Reynolds Electrical and Engineering Co., Inc.) nor EG&G
 -- each a well-known U.S. Department of Energy Test Site contractor -- has
people at S-4, that those persons' clearances are at most Q-Clearances, while
his own clearance is "38 levels above Q-Clearance." The closest to S-4 that
REECO or EG&G people physically...

@ Whew..How is anyone supposed to verify that? Maybe,just maybe the others that
worked with Lazar will come forth and support his story. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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194/417 26 Nov 89 15:07:00
From:   Michael Corbin
To:     John H. Chalmers Jr.
Subj:   115,Etc.
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
 >         (2) Element 115:  I don't know any reason why 115
 > would be useful in creating
 > an antigravity field or creating antimattter, except
 > possibly as an energy
 > source in some sort of fission reactor.  There is a
 > predicted quantum mechanical
 > "Island of Stability" around atomic numbers 112-116, but
 > more recent
 > calculations suggest that none of these elements would be
 > stable enough to be
 > isolated in macroscopic amounts. In contrast, only a few
 > years ago some
 > physicists thought that these elements might have half-
 > lives in the millions or
 > billions of years. Thank you for bringing this up.  I was hoping that some
of our physics readers would jump on this.  Could you go further into the
explanation about the instability of the elements between 112 and 116?
Furthermore, Lazar claims that the vessel uses that in combination with a wave
guide which, in his diagram, is shown protruding from the top part of the
reactor and protracting to the top of the vessel with an antenna of a sort
where it terminates.  At the bottom of the vessel is where the gravity
amplifier is located.

Also, what are tachyons and how could they figure into this scenario.  Is it
true that gravity could travel twice the speed of light?

 >         Antimatter is made today in small amounts; beams of
 > positrons and antiprotons
 > are used in particle accelerators.  Neutral anti-hydrogen
 > (positrons orbiting
 > antiprotons) would be hard to store, but certainly
 > synthesizable. It would be a
 > great power source when it mutually annihilated with normal
 > matter. How could this work in propulsion?

Based upon what has been said thus far by Lazar, could you comment on your
feelings about his credibility as a physicist and his theories regarding the
overall implication of this.

Thanks for your time and contribution to this discussion.

Michael Corbin

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198/417 27 Nov 89 04:28:00
From:   Robert Klinn
To:     All
Subj:   S-4 Worker Backs Up Lazar's Claims
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Six "Scared-To-Death" S-4
Workers Reportedly Meet Outside the Nevada Test Site at Lathrop Wells to Unite
and Join Lazar's Expose of Alien Saucers On KVEG-AM Radio in Las Vegas, on The
Billy Goodman Happening, 11/24/89, 10:00 p.m. to 1:00 a.m., with Robert Lazar
on the line, another caller introduces himself as "a colleague in Lazar's
department." Calling himself "MW" for Mercury Worker [Mercury is the military
town inside the Test Site], he distinguishes his work -- "hands-on" -- from
Lazar's.  MW says he is a construction worker, installing and constructing. He
says he and others like him work in S-4 -- especially underground -- in deep
sections. "We all know a lot." "Someone had to install the hangars." "There is
more than tunnels -- everything you can imagine -- cause we did everything." He
says people are now meeting in small groups to talk about backing up Lazar.
There was a meeting of six workers the night of 11/24/89, he says, to discuss
whether or not they should publicly say what they saw. The five others are
scared to death, he says.  He himself sounds scared on the telephone. They are
trying to get it where it will be safe for them to join Lazar, he says. The
MW's are "putting something together to join you." There are two more MW
workers supporting you, he says. "We got together at Lathrop Wells [a small
town close to the southwest end of the Nevada Test Site] and said we got to do
something." "Only two out of the six are willing to do something." "The guys
are for you." Although encouraged, Lazar points out there's a ten-year jail
term for them if they talk. --- QuickBBS v2.04
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228/417 28 Nov 89 19:19:44
From:   John H. Chalmers Jr.
To:     All
Subj:   Reply to Mike Corbin
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.) Date: 28 Nov 89
02:47:24 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet

Mike:  Based on what I have read on ParaNet, I can't take Lazar's physics very
seriously.  I suspect that a professional physicist would feel that I am
understating the situation. I'm a biologist, not a quantum mechanic so most of
what I know is from secondary sources like textbooks, Scientific American, New
Scientist, The Sciences, or Stephen Hawking's recent best seller.  Physics
isn't my specialty, but I'll try to answer your questions.
        Now if somebody were to offer me a piece of purported alien tissue or a
culture of an ET microbe, I think I'd know how to authenticate it or how to
find people who could.
        Elements decay by three principal routes, alpha emission, spontaneous
fission and beta decay. The three controlling forces, the Electromagnetic,the
Strong Nuclear and the Weak Nuclear, are well understood with theory agreeing
with experiment to nine or ten decimal places in many cases.  The computational
magnitude of systems as complex as heavy elements precludes exact calculations
even on supercomputers, but the best approximations suggest that elements of
atomic number around 114 are more stable than any nearby because the nucleons
(protons and neutrons) form closed or nearly closed shells. This phenomenon is
analogous to the chemical inertness of helium, neon and argon because their
electrons form closed shells (outside the nucleus) and there is little tendency
to arrange them in other configurations so that they could form bonds to other
atoms and make compounds.
        However, this stability is not absolute and atoms decay spontaneously
with half-lives (the time for 50% to change) ranging from more than 10 to the
33 years for Hydrogen to about 10-23 seconds for some extremely short lived
isotopes decaying by the Strong Force.  Elements with half lives of weeks or
months can be isolated in weighable amounts though doing so is difficult and
dangerous, but isotopes with shorter  half-lives can only be identified by
their radioactive decay products.  Only a few atoms of Element 109 have been
made so far, but the energies of the alpha particles emitted along its decay
chain made identification unambiguous.  It's half-life is somewhere between a
millisecond and a microsecond. Elements 110 and 111 are expected to be even
less stable, so experimenters hope to jump into the Stability region where
half-lives are calculated to be longer.

Longer might mean 10-6 seconds or  it might mean minutes or seconds.  I don't
know what the latest predictions are.
        The only way we have to make such heavy nuclei is accelerate atoms of
medium weight elements such as calcium, carbon, etc. and smash them into heavy
atoms such as uranium.  It takes a lot of energy to overcome the
electromagnetic repulsion to get the nuclei close enough so that the very short
range (10-13 cm) Strong Force can bind the compound nucleus together.  If the
atoms have too little energy, they won't fuse, but if they have too much, they
won't stay together.  The new nucleus is only marginally stable at best and
will fission if it has too much energy.  Another problem is that the new
nucleus may not have enough neutrons to be stable. If so, it will undergo beta
decay as well.
        If any elements around 114  or higher can be made they will be
important confirmation of the standard model.  They will also have interesting
chemistry since they will have more electrons than any know elements and some
of these electrons will be in g orbitals with somewhat different properties
from those in d and f orbitals.
        Tachyons are hypothetical particles with negative or imaginary rest
mass and always travel faster than light. They have never been observed and no
one knows how to search for them.  Since they travel faster than light, their
interactions with normal matter would conflict with relativity.  Gregory
Benford, a physicist and award winning SF author, has written a serious paper
about a "Tachyonic Anti-Telephone"  which would allow one to place a call to
the past.  Needless to say, this would violate causality as we understand it.
        Invoking tachyons to explain some unknown effect is committing the
fallacy known as "Ignotus per ignotum," using one unknown to explain another.
If and when tachyons are discovered, and assuming they have the requisite
properties, then they may be used to explain unusual events.
        Now to antimatter:  I didn't mean to imply that particle accelerators
bombard anti-protons with positrons.  High energy electrons collide with
positrons and protons with antiprotons to produce exotic particles such as the
W and Z mesons (the field quanta of the weak force).
        if anti-Hydrogen and normal Hydrogen come into contact, the positrons
and the electrons will mutually annihilate to generate two gamma rays of .51
Mev.  The antiprotons and protons of the nuclei will also annihilate, but they
do so in a more complex fashion which produces a lot of intermediate particles.
The end result is the conversion of the mass  of both the normal and the
anti-matter to energy according to Einstein's equation, E= mc2 (E=energy,
m=totalmass, c=speed of light).
        The resulting gamma rays could be reflected off a heavy shield and used
for propulsion as a high energy photonic drive.  Such as system seems to be the
only feasible energy source for interstellar flight according to the articles
I've seen.
        Small amounts of antimatter could be made if anybody wanted to.  For
powering interstellar spacecraft travelling at relativistic velocities,
thousands or millions of  tons will be required, alas.
        The energy released in ordinary fusion or fission reactions is only a
small fraction of this energy and comes from the binding energies of the
nuclei: fission and fusion are the nuclear analogs of fermentation, while
matter-antimatter annihilation is analogous to terminal oxidation.  The nuclear
energies are about a million times larger than the chemical energies, however,
and this is why terrestrial organisms don't/can't use nuclear power in their
metabolism.
        The yet undiscovered field particle of the gravitational force, the
fourth of the known forces, is the graviton.  It would travel at the speed of
light. I don't know of any justification for the notion that gravitational
effects propagate at 2*c.
        Although gravitational radiation has not been observed directly,
certain binary star systems are losing energy at the rate calculated for
gravitational radiation, so physicists are reasonable confident about the
standard model. Gravitational radiation antennas with sufficient sensitivity
are being constructed, so direct observation could occur soon.
        Wave guides are conductive tubes which direct electromagnetic waves
(radio waves, light, etc). I have no idea if a gravitational wave guide or
amplifier is even theoretically possible.  The people to ask are gravitational
theorists such as Kip Thorne, John Archibald Wheeler or Robert Forward (who
also writes SF).
        Forward has designed some hypothetical anti-gravity devices based on
standard physics.  One involves passing the mass of a neutron star though a
toroidal coil the size of a football field in a millisecond to neutralize the
earth's gravity field in the center by generating the gravitational analog of
the magnetic field.  The other methods are even less practical.
        The problem is that gravity is 10 +43 times weaker than the Strong
Force and thus hard to study in the laboratory. One wishes to manipulate masses
of at least planetary size.  Also, the gravitational field is always attractive
and a function of the geometry of space-time
        i hope all of this wordage answers your questions.  These are
fascinating areas and one can go on and on. --John

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251/417 29 Nov 89 18:45:28
From:   Usenet News
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar and his Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups:
info.paranet

Hello, paranet friends,

I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my
first posting.

+I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of
S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the
+information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better
+time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet
+Union call off the cold war?  Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in
their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang
together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod
(amdahl!drivax!macleod)

Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a
summit of great significance to the entire world.  As much as we would all like
to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I
have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for
promoting this kind of idea.

Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the
Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this
story before the summit?  Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance?

If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they
would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which
would ruin the ruse.  But the region where these events are alleged to have
occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history
of the area.  The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news
programs with great interest.

Then there is the involvement of Cooper.  Readers will have to judge for
themselves the significance of this.

        Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit.  His
background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase
his history would give credibility to his story.  Others that come forward are
part of the same effort.  Some are actual believers who have been convinced by
the thoroughness of the deception.

The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence
leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive
when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax
of the scam occurs just before the summit.  The result is that Gorbachev is off
balance and Bush has the advantage.


I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is
true, for these reasons:

1)  If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would
    never have appeared on that program.  Lazar said they knew
    he was going to leak in advance.  If that were true he
    would have been dead.  They would not wait until now to
    take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't
    miss.

2)  Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be
    involved.

3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that
    the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the
    most significant.  I could go into this, but let me just
    say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas
    presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen
    on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
    Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
    allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
    physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily bogus,
    it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy and pat.

4)  The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories.

5)  They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the
    significance of this summit, in light of political developments.
    This whole thing may have been generated directly in response
    to developments in Eastern Europe.

6)  The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence
    community - just another little game to try to keep the other
    guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation.


Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many
independent sources.

Cheers, --Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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257/417 01 Dec 89 02:31:53
From:   Usenet News
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar and his Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups:
info.paranet

Hello, paranet friends,

I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my
first posting.

+I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of
S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the
+information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better
+time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet
+Union call off the cold war?  Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in
their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang
together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod
(amdahl!drivax!macleod)

Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a
summit of great significance to the entire world.  As much as we would all like
to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I
have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for
promoting this kind of idea.

Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the
Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this
story before the summit?  Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance?

If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they
would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which
would ruin the ruse.  But the region where these events are alleged to have
occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history
of the area.  The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news
programs with great interest.

Then there is the involvement of Cooper.  Readers will have to judge for
themselves the significance of this.

        Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit.  His
background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase
his history would give credibility to his story.  Others that come forward are
part of the same effort.  Some are actual believers who have been convinced by
the thoroughness of the deception.

The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence
leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive
when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax
of the scam occurs just before the summit.  The result is that Gorbachev is off
balance and Bush has the advantage.


I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is
true, for these reasons:

1)  If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would
    never have appeared on that program.  Lazar said they knew
    he was going to leak in advance.  If that were true he
    would have been dead.  They would not wait until now to
    take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't
    miss.

2)  Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be
    involved.

3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that
    the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the
    most significant.  I could go into this, but let me just
    say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas
    presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen
    on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
    Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
    allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
    physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily bogus,
    it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy and pat.

4)  The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories.

5)  They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the
    significance of this summit, in light of political developments.
    This whole thing may have been generated directly in response
    to developments in Eastern Europe.

6)  The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence
    community - just another little game to try to keep the other
    guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation.


Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many
independent sources.

Cheers, --Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
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259/417 01 Dec 89 02:33:02
From:   MacLeod
To:     All
Subj:   (none)
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
From: drivax![e-mail] (MacLeod)
Date: 30 Nov 89 07:47:08 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet


Dear Friends,

I saw this article in the sci.space USENET newsgroup.

I think it's some straightfaced bs put up to parody the Area 51 article, but I
could be wrong.  The article had a strange-looking path line, and it seemed to
have been gateed from the Internet.

Article 15143 of sci.space: Path:
drivax!amdahl!apple!brutus.cs.uiuc.edu!wuarchive!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!ucsd
!ucbvax!FNAL.BITNET!HIGGINS From: [e-mail] (W.T. Higgins)
Newsgroups: sci.space Subject: Re: Antimatter Drives and Area 51 Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Date: 28 Nov 89 15:47:00 GMT Sender:
[e-mail] Organization: The Internet Lines: 61

Michael Sloan MacLeod posted a discussion about:

+Robert Lazar, formerly employed by the government at the mysterious +Area 51,
says that the US government has 500 pounds of element 115, +which somehow
produces antimatter when irradiated.

Lazar is pulling the wool over somebody's eyes. There were less than 300 pounds
of element 115, and probably less now. Samples were tested in various
university and government labs, including mine. Yes, it does give off
antimatter when bombarded with the proper radiation.  If you hit it with
negative muons, 115 (I'm talking about 287, the most abundant isotope, here.
Inconvenient not having a name for the element, but there never was general
agreement on it.)  transitions to an excited state that decays into a positron,
a nucleus of 114, and an antideuteron (bound state of an antiproton and an
antineutron).  The 114 is unstable, and in a few milliseconds it gives off
another antideuteron and a pair of positrons. And so forth, down the chart of
the nuclides. Every once in a while a decay in this chain will throw off a
neutron, just to keep things balanced. This had everybody excited for a while.
You might remember the big *Popular Mechanics* article about it.

Unfortunately, it turned out to be a bust.  We showered muons on our 115 sample
rods for weeks on end.  The decay chain ends, after a rather short time, at
106Pd. And Pd has a tremendous affinity for hydrogen, and anti-hydrogen.  We
had made a bunch of antimatter, but we couldn't get it out. The deuterons were
stuck within the Pd lattice.  All we could collect were a few deuterons coming
off atoms on the surface, and positrons, which we can get anywhere.  And
instead of an exotic heavy element, we were left with an inert lump of a metal
anybody can buy on the commodities market.  Remember the joke about the
alchemist who could turn gold into lead?

Having established that it wasn't a miracle energy source, most labs pretty
much lost interest.  At mine, we took the experiment apart and went on to more
interesting work.  The sample rods were lying around the lab for a while,
though, come to think of it, I haven't seen them in a couple of years.  I
suppose somebody scrounged them for another experiment.

+This fuel is used to drive waveguide-type gravity amplifiers which +are the
FTL drive components of nine alien spacecraft

Eight.  One crashed during tests in August 1981.  Three of the remaining eight
have now been dismantled.

+stored in hangars +out at Area 51 (the supersecret testing grounds also known
as "Dreamland" +in the middle of the Nellis AFB bombing range about 65 miles
northeast of +Las Vegas).

Not *too* supersecret.  See the book *Dreamland: A New Age of Flight Testing*,
by Richard Adams Locke, Aero Books, 1985.  A lot of nice photos of the place.

+From his brief description of how the drives operate, they +seem to create
local black-hole strength gravity gradients which slow down +time and cause a
space-fold quickly traversible by the spacecraft.

Get real.  The correct spelling is "traversable."

                                       Bill Higgins
+------------------------------------------------+
|  These opinions are not shared by my employer, |
|        or perhaps by anybody else.             |
+------------------------------------------------+

Michael Sloan MacLeod

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272/417 02 Dec 89 22:22:00
From:   Clark Matthews
To:     Usenet News
Subj    Re: Lazar And His Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
 > 3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe
 > that the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is
 > the most significant.  I could go into this, but let me
 > just say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the
 > ideas presented there make more sense than anything else I
 > have seen on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
 > Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
 > allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
 > physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily
 > bogus, it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy
 > and pat.


Hi Steve.  Well, like you I have been quite taken with Dr. Vallee's hypothesis
in _Dimensions_.  But let's not get carried away here...

A few days back, pre-Crash (Alpha's hard disk, not the markets) I wrote a
semi-tongue-in-cheek riposte to someone about how unimportant it is who or what
builds and operates the UFOs we see, hear of, and investigate. Whether they are
built & operated by elves, pixies, leprechauns, Titans, Nordics or whatever is
not the point.

The point (to my mind, anyway) is that they print on radar, leave leave dents
in the ground when they land, occasionally scorch things and let people get
close enough to touch them -- even get inside.  They are material things.
Whether they come from Zeta II, a parallel universe or Middle Earth, they are
physical objects.

Even though these devices and their makers/masters may seem to us as
present-day astronauts must appear to the most primitive Bushmen, I really
don't allow myself to doubt their physical existence or impute anything
supernatural or religious to them. I do not think Dr. Vallee does either -- as
least as far as I read his book.

It may be that the U.S. has some of these things somewhere and has discovered
that they are as real -- yet ephemeral -- as a leprechaun's pot 'o gold.  I.e.:
 They've got them, but they can't DO anything with them. Nevertheless they
could exist.  And Lazar may be telling the truth.

If your doubts center around Lazar's still being alive -- in other words, why
was he allowed to "leak & live".  Well, people like Lazar are double-edged
swords.  Nothing gets public attention faster than an untimely death.
Especially if it's the death of someone who's been telling a story. It looks
like Cooper's theories (which coincide with Lazar's revalations) may stem from
Lazar himself.  So if Lazar is authentic -- if his references check -- then the
Cooper sideshow may be just that.  A sideshow, and not the main event.

Anyway, until Lazar is discredited -- or discredits himself -- I'm definitely
prepared to stay with this one.

Best,
  Clark

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295/417 04 Dec 89 12:31:54
From:   Usenet News
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar and his Amazing Saucers
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
Date: 29 Nov 89 20:47:15 GMT Message-ID: <[e-mail]> Newsgroups:
info.paranet

Hello, paranet friends,

I have been reading the newsletter from paranet for some time now. This is my
first posting.

+I just had an interesting thought...if you had been sitting on the secret +of
S-4 and dreamland for a long while, and had instructions to release the
+information to the public only if it would not cause a crisis, what better
+time to stage-leak the real story, as most of Eastern Europe and the Soviet
+Union call off the cold war?  Perhaps what Reagan was telling Gorbachev +in
their summit conferences is that we'll all hang separately if we don't +hang
together. + +More paranoia from, + +Michael Sloan MacLeod
(amdahl!drivax!macleod)

Regarding Lazar, I just wonder about the fact that we are on the eve of a
summit of great significance to the entire world.  As much as we would all like
to believe this intriguing tale (since so many questions would be answered), I
have to think that our government has a powerful motivation at the moment for
promoting this kind of idea.

Given the credulity of Soviets on this subject, how likely is it that the
Soviet intelligence community is going crazy right now trying to verify this
story before the summit?  Is this all designed to throw Gorbachev off balance?

If our government tried to announce such a thing (supposing it is false) they
would be innundated with requests for demonstrations and explanations, which
would ruin the ruse.  But the region where these events are alleged to have
occurred would be under constant scrutiny by Soviet agents, given the history
of the area.  The agents assigned to the area probably observed the news
programs with great interest.

Then there is the involvement of Cooper.  Readers will have to judge for
themselves the significance of this.

        Here is my scenario: Lazar works for some intelligence outfit.  His
background was wiped out (ineffectively) in the hopes that the attempt to erase
his history would give credibility to his story.  Others that come forward are
part of the same effort.  Some are actual believers who have been convinced by
the thoroughness of the deception.

The information is released in controlled packets, perhaps some intelligence
leaks were provided directly to Soviet agents to prepare them to be receptive
when the television program came on. It all is building up so that the climax
of the scam occurs just before the summit.  The result is that Gorbachev is off
balance and Bush has the advantage.


I think this is much more likely than the possibility that what Lazar says is
true, for these reasons:

1)  If this project were so top secret as Lazar says, he would
    never have appeared on that program.  Lazar said they knew
    he was going to leak in advance.  If that were true he
    would have been dead.  They would not wait until now to
    take sniper shots at him, and if they did, they wouldn't
    miss.

2)  Bill Cooper has discredited himself, and he appears to be
    involved.

3)  After reading on the subject, I am inclined to believe that
    the spiritual/supernatural/extradimensional aspect is the
    most significant.  I could go into this, but let me just
    say that I too have been reading Dimensions, and the ideas
    presented there make more sense than anything else I have seen
    on the subject.  This story does not fit the scenario.
    Instead it fits into a neat materialistic mold which would
    allow the military to control the phenomena by purely
    physical means.  This does not mean it is necessarily bogus,
    it just makes me suspicious.  It is too neat; too easy and pat.

4)  The gov't has a history of "leaking" bogus UFO stories.

5)  They are motivated to try to maintain the upper hand by the
    significance of this summit, in light of political developments.
    This whole thing may have been generated directly in response
    to developments in Eastern Europe.

6)  The whole thing may be relatively unimportant to our intelligence
    community - just another little game to try to keep the other
    guys confused, and good practice at generating disinformation.


Sorry, it's just too bizarre to believe without tons of corroboration from many
independent sources.

Cheers, --Steve
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
          {uunet,sun}!convex!swarren; [e-mail]

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369/417 11 Dec 89 18:47:49
From:   [e-mail]
To:     All
Subj:   Info-Paranet #94
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
From:   [e-mail] Date: 11 Dec 89 07:28:28 GMT Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet

From: isis!uunet!sparta!sun!esanborn (Ed Sanborn)


Mike C.,

  I seemed to have missed 'Info-Paranet #94'.  If you could please send an
email of this I'd appreciate it.  Looking forward to the Video-tapes of Lazar
happenings.  Please feel free to fill the tapes with misc. at end.

  Also, what's this business of missing coverage of these broadcasts?  Maybe
this should be directed at Robert Klinn but it would be a shame if we and quite
possibly a tragedy if we aren't able to monitor the complete broadcasts.  What
is the price status if someone wanted to get copies of the broadcasts from the
TV stations?

                                                   Thanks,

                                                        Ed Sanborn
                                                        uunet!sparta!esanborn
                                                        w: [phone]
                                                        h: [phone]

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394/417 14 Dec 89 19:14:53
From:   [e-mail]
To:     All
Subj:   Lazar/115
Attr:   ------------------------------------------------
From: [e-mail] Date: 14 Dec 89 16:41:19 GMT Message-ID:
<[e-mail]> Newsgroups: info.paranet

From: [e-mail] (John H. Chalmers Jr.)

Is there any independent confirmation that a nuclear explosion occurred in the
atmosphere in 1986 as Lazar claims? The signature of such a blast if due to 115
would be completly different from a fission or fusion explosion.  there would
be no fission products from an antimatter explosion an dprobably much less
induced radioactivity. Is athere any data on this supposed event in Nevada. Try
the anti-nuke or environmetal groups. --John

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404/417 15 Dec 89 22:55:00 From:   Michael Corbin To:
[e-mail] Subj:   Lazar/115 Attr:
------------------------------------------------
 > Is there any independent confirmation that a nuclear
 > explosion occurred
 > in the atmosphere in 1986 as Lazar claims? The signature of
 > such a blast
 > if due to 115 would be completly different from a fission
 > or fusion
 > explosion.  there would be no fission products from an
 > antimatter explosion
 > an dprobably much less induced radioactivity. Is athere any
 > data on this
 > supposed event in Nevada. Try the anti-nuke or environmetal
 > groups.

Very good point.  This and others aspects are currently being investigated in
the Nevada region.  Most of the aspects of the historocity of the Air Force's
acquisition of 90,000 acres is correct, Lazar seems to rely heavily upon these
types of activities as a means to support his claims.  However, this does not
mean that they are even inter-related to one another or to his experience.  I
found the land grab inception to Lazar's story very interesting.  The way that
it was presented to the television public made it sound as though it was very
mysterious, however, the Air Force did not say that their authority to do the
act of acquiring the land was higher than the United States, but only higher
than the Air Force.  Surely, other departments of the government are at a
higher level than the Air Force, and with this in mind plus the fact that
Dreamland has been known to be super-secret for over forty years does not
support Lazar's claims.  If there was an unscheduled nuclear test in 1987, this
may be suspect.  I am very interested in that test and whether it was authentic
and if there was anything unusual registered by anyone monitoring the
atmosphere.

Mike

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